10 Round Load Development Ladder Test
Identifying a consistent and accurate load for your precision rifle while improving the overall efficiency of the load development process is a laudable goal. The 6.5 Guys met with Scott Satterlee to discuss and explore a technique he calls the “10 Round Load Development Ladder Test”. This is a load development approach he has refined to quickly identify accuracy nodes with only 10 rounds. Additional cartridges are then loaded to test and confirm these accuracy nodes. Scott’s approach really interested us as load development has traditionally been a time intensive and laborious process.
A lot of folks ask us if Scott’s methods are a replacement for OCW. When asked that question, Scott responds that his method uses a chronograph to get to the same answer as OCW. Prior to the availability of the extremely portable and accurate Magnetospeed, shooting groups as prescribed by the OCW method was the most practical way to arrive at an optimal load. Long story short, if you want to use the OCW method as promulgated by Dan Newberry there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. However, Scott believes his method is more efficient and arrives at the correct answer faster.
The following quote from Scott summarizes a key observation with load development, “Im not sure it is optimal charge weight at all but optimal velocity for the bullet weight that determines barrel harmonics. The reason I say this is because I can get the exact same great results in a velocity node using seven different powders. As long as I keep the bullet going the same velocity from powder to powder I get the same result. Powder charge may be slightly different but as long as I’m in the velocity happy place for that bullet and my cartridge, powder is secondary.”
Scott’s method is predicated on the shooter having their reloading techniques dialed in. After the release of the video, we had a number of viewers ask us what Scott does to perfect his reloading technique. We can tell you from personal experience that we have adopted many of Scott’s techniques and they work:
- Brass makes a big difference. Buy good brass and be done with it.
- Get a good chronograph. From a convenience and accuracy standpoint, the Magnetospeed is hard to beat.
- Sort your brass by lot and the number of times they have been fired. We can’t tell you how many inquiries we get from folks who purchase mixed lots of brass at the local outdoor store and wonder why they can’t find a good load.
- Annealing works. There was an experiment done by a reputable company and super smart guys, but the experiment was too limited to replicate high volume shooters. Take a look at our article on the AMP annealer where we discuss this.
- Powder weight is pretty important. Measure every single charge unless you are reloading in volume for a gas gun or pistol. A lot of folks use the RCBS Chargemaster and certain modifications can be made to really dial them in. This will be the subject of a future article.
- Find a load length that gets your bullets off the lands. A load that is jammed into the lands will not have durability and you will have to readjust them frequently. VLD bullets can be jump tolerant and extremely accurate well off the lands. The following article from Berger Bullets confirms this.
- Remove primers as a separate step using a dedicated die such as the Lee Universal Decapper. We’ve conducted experiments where using the sizing die to decap increases runout.
- Use a mandrel instead of an expander ball. We’ve noticed less runout and lower SDs by doing this. Get a carbide mandrel so you can remove any burrs or imperfections after you remove the sizing lube from the brass. A mandrel also helps in conditioning the necks on virgin brass and avoids the need to full length size virgin brass.
- Pay attention to primer seating. Seat the primer until the anvil touches the bottom of the primer pocket and go ever so slightly further (.001″) to pre-stress the priming compound. This requires a refined sense of feel that can take some time to develop. We’ve encountered shooters with dud rounds who claim “I’ve got some bad primers.” Almost without exception, they are not seating their primers deep enough.
- If running a compressed load, settle your powder. Check out our article on bullet seating.
Here’s a summary of Scott’s “10 round” technique as described by him:
“I start 1.5 grains below my max load and load 10 shells ascending by .2 gr. So for the Swedemoor, 50.0, .2, .4, .6, .8, 51.0, .2, .4, .6, .8, 52.0
Then I will shoot these over the chronograph and look for the nodes. A node will be a velocity flat spot where .4-.8 gr of powder doesn’t move the speedometer much. This example with Reloader 26 in my 6.5 Addiction with 140 RDFs, the flat spot is between 51.2 and 51.8 grains -velocity went from 3025-3033 fps. So, .8 grains of powder added a total of 8 fps. Therefore, the middle of my node is 51.5 grains.
Next I then load up 5 of the 51.5 grain load and shoot them over the chronograph and the extreme spread was 5 FPS. I have repeated this with H100V, H4350, 4831, 1000, Retumbo, RE 17,19, 22, 23, 26, wiN 760, 780, VV 160, 170, 560, 570 IMR 4451, 4955, 7828 and 7977. With all of these powders, 3020-3035 fps was an accuracy node without regard to the powder type.
Once I find the velocity node I load in the middle of it then fiddle with COAL until it shoots tiny groups with low low extreme spreads. You can have an accurate load at 100 yards that will not shoot past 600 yards because you have a high extreme spread. For me any extreme spread that is over 25 FPS is unacceptable no matter how small the group is at 100 yards. Even if I had a load that shot .1 moa at 100 yard yet had an ES of 30, I wouldn’t use that load for a match. I would take a .3 moa load that had a sub 10 fps extreme spread any day of the week because the load will not start to spread vertically past 600.”
Editor: Ed Mobley (ed@65guys.com)
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Not to split hairs … but for the example you gave of loading by .2 grain increments … I count 11 rounds if you’re including 50.0 and 52.0. It’s ten steps of incremental change, but actually 11 loads. Regardless, I get the core idea of what is being done. Also, I appreciate your emphasis on evaluating distance, velocity and accuracy (as it relates to ES). Too often, shooters will look only at velocity … which by itself has nothing to do with accuracy.
I love this video and have done a few load work ups using a variant of this method. I just got my 6.5CM back from the gunsmith with a new barrel and i’m going to work up a new load this weekend. You guys seem to like using small magnum rifle primers for your 6 & 6.5 rifles. Would you care to explain the reason behind that choice?
Hi,
A few reasons:
1) Longer brass life – the primer pockets remain tighter much longer thanks to all the extra brass in the head
2) Small rifle primers tend to give better SD and ES numbers based on Lapua’s research when creating the 6.5×47
3) It allows us to standardize on one type of primer for .223, 6.5×47, .308, etc.
I understand the philosophies BEHIND a Small Primer for the 6 & 6.5 cartridges, but I was asking specifically about your choice for MAGNUM small primers. I jumped on the Lapua 6.5CM train immediately after their release.
After some further research, it appears to be a popular choice among a lot of competitive shooters. Some cite lower SD & ES without gaining any velocity. So it appears consistency is the reason behind the choice for most.
Have you guys tested this? Small MAGNUM vs Small Standard Rifle primers? I picked some up to do some testing in my own rifle but I’d love to hear any results you might have.
Hi,
We started using the magnums because it’s what our gunsmith recommended with the 6.5×47. It also worked will with the .223 and .308 so we didn’t see a need to research the standard primers. This really simplifies things as we just need to purchase one primer in bulk.
The CCI #41 is desensitized to light firing pin strikes from free-floating firing pins used in many military semi-autos. It is rated “magnum small rifle” data by CCI.
Correct – CCI says you can use the same loading data with the CCI #41 and CCI 450. In speaking with CCI about those primers, the only difference is the anvil. Cup thickness, formula, etc. is the same.
By SD are you referring to sectional Density? I thought that was determined by the design of the bullet ie: SD and BC. Are you referring to something besides sectional density?
Derrrr Standard Deviation… My Brain just got Stuck on Sectional Density and wouldn’t budge. Thinking WTF? changing powder charge can”t affect Sectional Density. What are these guys talking about… LMAO
LOL
The “SD” we are referring to is standard deviation, which is a statistical calculation / metric that indicates the average variance around the mean value of the velocities measured for particular load.
I’m working on Scott’s system and I’m VERY impressed. I’m reading for the “COAL fine-tuning” stage. More detail on that? Start where in relation to the lands? What size increments in thousandths? How many rounds per increment? Shot at what distance (is 100 yards okay)?
Hi – just went through this with our .308 load development. Unless we’re shooting a VLD type bullet, we start at .020″ off the lands. We we’re playing around with the Nosler 175 RDF bullets and upon recommendation from Nosler went to .050″ which seemed to tighten up the groups.
100 yard groups don’t tell you much. On several occasions, and as illustrated in the video, you can shoot one inch groups with 2 grains variance in powder weight. If you are going to shoot groups, consider 200 yards the minimum. Also keep in mind that the human error associated with shooting groups can send you in circles unless you really have things dialed in. For those reasons, we focus more on the chronograph results because that will dictate your accuracy at long range.
Notify me if follow up posts..l
Hi – we just replied to a number of posts…thanks for your interest.
I tired this method and my results weren’t too good, And Im looking for advice to improve my process. I was using 73gr ELD-M and cfe223 powder. I shot from 22.8 to 24.8 gr powder in .2 increments and found a couple of very narrow nodes 4 fps between 24.6 and 24.8. So I loaded 10 rounds of 24.7 and shot to groups my ES was 36 and 40 for the 2 groups. The groups were +4moa at 100yd with magnerospeed attached. Prevoius experience with other grain bullets I should only see the groups high on the target and maybe 1.5 moa. Im suspecting something is wrong with my thinking or process, likely both! Any theories or things I should look at.
Hi Orie – we noticed something similar when doing load development with our .223. Using CCI Small Rifle Magnum primers we had no problem keeping SD under 10 fps. On a lark, we decided to see if the Remington 7-1/2 benchrest primers would decrease SD. Instead, SD shot up to 30 FPS!!!! You would think a benchrest primer would decrease SD but they didn’t in our case. Assuming you are weighing each charge and your scale is accurate, see if you have better luck changing primers. Best of luck!
Just go with the 75 grn Hornady Hpbt Varget 24.5 grns problems solved. Assuming your shooting a ar-15 with a 1-7 twist
decided to give this method a try. loaded up 20 rounds 2×10 in .2 increments. 10 extra rounds over what you guys suggest to test repeatability (excel is judge and executioner)
will chrono in the morning with magnetospeed sporter. not shooting for groups in any way (nonpics)
rl-16 with 147gr eldm’s coming out of factory RPR…
Please share your results…
i gave this a shot and did 2 grains worth of .2 variance. 10 shots total. found that not only was there no obvious flat spots the results were noisy enough that trying to spot a flat spot would be near impossible. decided to give it another chance and shot a second string with the same general trend but any individual grain count might be off by as much as 10fps between the two shots. so added a -third- string, in for a penny in for a pound at this point, and only with three shots at each .2 increment did some trend start becoming obvious. after shooting about 50 more in groups of 5 to look at the SD/ES and mean while dialing in seating depth etc. i think i’ve found my load.
long story short – unless you’re confident that your SD and more importantly ES across a 10 shot string is less than the 10fps difference you might see when going from 43.5 to 43.7 grains (for example). then there is almost no way you can trust the results of one shot at each charge level. and how do you know what your ES and SD look like without shooting at least 5 of the same load? not very many guys can keep ES in the single digits even after trying different primers, etc. Assuming a new barrel and load you’ve never shot that you’re trying to work up, thinking you’re in single digit ES is probably lunacy even if your technique on other loads is dead nuts.
In hindsight and plenty of excel plotting behind me, I think the math and number of shots required for going off of fps and looking for a flat spot simply isn’t statistically valid for 99.99% of people out there.
if you start shooting 3 or 5 st each charge level to have confidence, then it starts looking suspiciously like a OCW test with the addition of chronograph data to confirm velocity grouping not just accuracy on paper. i don’t see any way around needing 50-100 shots to have confidence in both chargeweight and seating depth even if you’re an “above average” reloader and can manage single digit SD’s and an ES OF 15 for a 5 shot string.
The math on the 10 shot ladder teqhnique just doesn’t add up.
Thanks for sharing your experience. As we mentioned in the video, this is an advanced technique. If you don’t have everything dialed in ranging from powder dispensing, neck tension, etc. things can get lost in the noise. Before I went to the 10 round technique, I started to shoot only three shots at each load – that’s the “hybrid” technique I mention at the close of the video. I then moved to two and as I gained my confidence moved to 1 shot. Regarding OCW, there is nothing wrong with that technique and if you are confident in your ability to shoot groups consistently you should use what works. Personally, I find myself introducing too much human error particularly with higher recoiling rounds so it’s nice to use the chronograph results as a sanity check.
Shooting groups is certainly tough too, especially when you start talking about trying to get down below .5 MOA (at least for me).
At 100 yards, if you can’t manage to shoot .5 MOA all day every day off your normal biopod and bag, then trying to get your ES down to ~13 (where you’d have 1MOA of vertical dispersion at 1k yards), you’re probably better off trying to improve your trigger control and group shooting than reducing your SD and ES.
Just like .1 MOA 100 yard groups are worthless if you have an SD or ES in the 50’s (2+ MOA of dispersion at 1k yards), having a ES of 5 doesn’t do squat if you can’t manage to shoot those .1 MOA groups.
There is probably some ratio of group size to SD/ES you could calculate that shows one versus the other is your limiting factor. You guys should convince Cal over at precisionrifleblog to figure it out with WEZ and do a joint article!
, then an ES of ~13 is going to give you ~ 1MOA of vertical dispersion regardless of how well you’re shooting. If your group shooting isn’t up to the task
You bring up an excellent point – when you are shooting off a pile of rocks or a barricade with a 1MOA wobble it really brings things into perspective. Personally, I (Ed) have shot enough to know that if my SDs are not in the single digits, there are opportunities for improvement. These days I typically get around 5 fps SD with most cartridges. Maybe when I get a better powder scale I can bring that number down. From a grouping perspective, I have a goal of getting consistent .5 – .75 MOA groups at 100 yards shooting from a bipod. With my .223 trainer I can literally shoot the staples on my target at 100 yards with mixed headstamp ammo and powder charges thrown with a Dillon powder measure. With the higher recoiling .308 I’m not nearly as accurate with even the most meticulously loaded ammo. The ability to manage recoil has a big impact on accuracy based on my experience.
When I first got into this game, I’d be thrilled with a 1 MOA group from any rifle but my standards have evolved as I gain more experience. If I can find a load with single digit SDs and the ability to shoot sub MOA groups I turn my attention elsewhere: positional stability, wind reading, etc. It is certainly a journey….
only took me 120 shots to get there but… 0.5 moa load – check. single digit SD – check. good dope shooting out to 1k yards prone or from the bench -check.
1 moa wobble off the barricade – not a chance in hell! i’d be happy to keep it a -just- 2 most of the time from my limited practice 🙂
can’t wait for it all to be perfect though… off to my first PRS club match in the morning! thanks for all you do guys, definitely pushed me over the edge to register
reading/watching
Best of luck at your first match! Sounds like you have things dialed in!
Just used this technique on my 7mm rem mag. 10 fps spread and pretty dialed in on my pet load. All in about 30 rounds thanks to these guys.
Glad it worked out for you!
I have been having issues with my 308. I “seem” to get crap groups with low SD or good groups with high SD’s. I have a decent group going with a SD of 12.8. When I change the bullet seating depth as you suggest, the velocity changes.
Now what?
Hi Dave,
We’ve been there. A couple of questions:
1) At what distance are you shooting your groups?
2) How repeatable are your groups? For a load that groups well, can you get the result time and time again? We just ask, because shooting groups can be very error prone unless you really have things dialed in.
We would suggest that you focus on the load with the lowest SD because the loads with a high SD will not perform well at distance no matter how well they do at 100 yards.
100 yards is all I have at my local club. I will go back and look at my results again. Based on this conversation I will change my tactics and see what I can do this weekend. I will update you on my results. Thanks so much.
Dave
So, finally I am back at it. Ran out of primers F210M and cant find them locally so I had to change after more than 20 years of using nothing but the Federal. Then I couldn’t find more powered for the load I was working on.
Perfect time for this process as I am basically starting from scratch. So, |Berger 155.5, Varget, Remington second firing brass with S & B primers. Found a good wright up on these primers so I am giving them a try.
So, bright and sunny, lite wind, 26C. (Canada EH) 10 rounds loaded starting at 44.2 grains up 0.2 increments to 46.0. Shot low to high with fouled barrel. Results in order, where….
2720.2
2718.3
2736.0
2752.9
2769.1
2762.4
2781.6
2798.2
2808.0
2829.9
Yes they are in the right order and yes I was very carefull to shoot them in the right order by load. Excuse me but WTF do you do with that? BTW, when I was done this I shot one more group with the same primers and brass. Reloader 15 and Hornady 168 M. Average speed 2689.5, extreme spread 17.1, MAD 5.0 SD 6.6.
Suggestions please?
haha – i felt like I was in the exact same boat as you. all i really learned was that more powder equals more FPS. wish I could tell you that i thought this technique worked but…
Hi,
When you go from 2720.2 to 2718.3 and from 2769.1 to 2762.4 Scott calls those “inversions”. Those are areas worth exploring. Since you are shooting Berger 155.5s you may want to explore higher velocities. Assuming a 26″ barrel and a .308, most folks like to get 2900 – 2950 fps. When I (Ed) used to shoot the 155 Scenars in my .308 I found a nice load in the 2950 range. Unfortunately, the 155s are no legal for PRS tactical class. But if I wanted to make the most of the .308 I’d shoot a high BC 155gr bullet.
As always, watch for pressure signs when working up your loads.
I will be shooting Meaford Ontario September long weekend. I will be shooting the 155.5’s in the tactical division. I just checked the 2017 rules update and I see nothing about shooting a lighter weight bullet for 308. Only a cap of 178 grains with a max of 2800 fps.
???????
Hi – I just went back to the rule book (https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/prs_rules.pdf) and sure enough:
“7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester has a bullet weight cap of 178 grains and muzzle velocity cannot
exceed 2,800 fps.”
Only issue is you’re giving up a lot of ballistic potential by shooting the 155.5 at only 2,800 fps. For those reasons, a lot of folks are running the 175-178 grain bullets at or near 2,800 fps.
Meaford changed gears and placed a 168 grain cap on projectiles for this shoot. I was using the the 178 A-max
24″ barrel Kimber Advanced Tactical. Tough getting range time of late. So I picked out 3 spots of interest as you suggested. Results where …
44.3 grains, 2642 fps SD 8.3
45.1 grains, 2697 fps SD 8.2
45.7 grains, 2730 fps SD 5.6
I have loaded 20 more rounds, 5 each at different lengths to see if one is better. If all goes well I will try these on Sunday.
The 2730 sounds like a good candidate. What’s the bullet weight again?
155.5 Bergers
Made it to the range and ran my 4 bullet depths. Turns out pushing them in 0.002 deeper was the way to go. 7/16″ 5 shot group. SD went down to 4.7. That works for me!!! Thanks guys!!!
I just watched the video, that’s a real eye opener. It would have been instructional as part of the video, to have seen a few loads at various distances (100, 600, 1000) and see how the preferred load compared to those that might have been less preferred. Next time I am out testing I am going to give this method a try. I also like you hybrid idea of 3 shots per charge; I would do each 3 shot group on separate targets as well.
Please share your results. Thanks for watching!
Okay, so I was at a point of working up new loads for 123 and 139 Lapua Scenars using Varget for both, so I decided to give this a try. I was not going for maximum velocity but rather looking for milder velocity since I was using these loads for high power silhouette. Here are some specifics: 6.5 CM, Hornday brass resized using a Lee Collet die, Federal 210 primers. Rem 700 w/bolt lugs lapped, pillar bedded, Criterion sporter barrel. Loaded up 10 rounds of each, 0.2 grain increments bracketing the velocity I was looking for.
For the 123, I found a spot where the ES between 4 shots was 12 fps and for the 139, a spot where the ES between 3 shots was 13 fps. Using a Magnetospeed for velocity measurement.
Loaded up 10 rounds of each using the average charge weights from the above flat spots. Chronographed 5 shots of each. For the 123, SD of 6.7, ES of 14. For the 139, SD of 5.2, ES of 13. Shot the other 5 shots of each w/o magnetospeed for accuracy.
All groups, with or without magnetospeed were 0.75 MOA and I think with adjusting seating depth, it would do better.
As a side note, the temperature when I shot the first 10 rounds was 53 degrees and 88 degrees when I shot the second 10 rounds. The tested load velocities were within 8 fps of each other.
I used OCW in the past, but I like this approach way much better! Thanks to you 6.5 Guys and Scott for sharing!
Good to hear!
I will be trying this Load development for the first time this week, Had to rebarrel and went with a new cartridge, (6 dasher). I Have 5 days until my next match to find a load an load it. Can’t wait to see what shakes out of it. Might try the Hybrid method as I’m not familiar with this cartridge.
I was wondering what was a good Seating depth from the lands? I seen your previous post in reference to the Nosler RDF’s. Would you suggest the same .050″ for a sierra 110 Matchking?
Hi,
I’d start with .020″ and shoot your ladder. If your desired load isn’t grouping as you would like, try to seat it out further in .010″ increments (.030″, .040″, .050″ etc.).
Best of luck!
Tried this for the first time yesterday. I am doing this by interchanging guns every three shots to keep barrel temps down. The three shot segments are made up of increased powder volume by .2 grain. In other words first shot of three is .4 grain less than third shot. Using a Labradar to record velocities. Numbers are all over the place…nothing consistent. First shot of three may or may not be fastest of three, etc. This is happening with all three guns. Do you think the process of shooting in three shot segments is amplifying cold/warm barrel effects? Thanks, Duane
Hi,
No two guns are the same so changing rifles is most likely the issue. I would use the same rifle – just wait a few minutes to let the barrel cool.
Thanks. What I am trying to do is run a load development for each rifle and the respective powder simultaneously. I thought this would be an efficient way of using the barrel cool time…to develop a load for another rifle. Like what you guys are doing. Keep up the good work.
This works! I shot it in my 6.5WSM, with 140 gr Berger Elite Hunters and Reloder 26 last weekend. Right in the middle of the incremental charges, 3 consecutive charges were all within 12 fps. Five rounds, each with a different powder charge, printed a 1.19″ group at 200 yards (not much over 1/2 MOA). I’m now on to final seating depth testing.
Thanks for sharing!
Scott said he recommends (or actually uses) the Magnetospeed chronograph, and that it needs looking after from time to time (getting
loose on the barrel anchorage, etc.). Maybe some of the strange MV vs. powder load curves reported here can be attributed to Chrono probs.
65 Guys need to do a lab grade replication of the Satterlee method
themselves, say on the Howa Mini-actions, 5.56 and/or 7.62 and report their results to the PRS community.
—CCW
We most recently used this method for developing our .308 loads and it works. We also make sure the Magnetospeed is good and tight on the barrel.
Thank you for your effort in making the Season 4 Episode 4 video. I have a Savage 10 that I haven’t shot in a year. It was recently re-barreled to 6.5 Creedmoor, and I’m trying to use OCW to develop a load. My performance when using this gun has vastly fallen off from its peak of a year ago, and this makes using OCW very difficult. I watched your video and the light went off. I’ve got a Magneto-speed sporter and could use the data from that to develop my load. This will compensate for my lack of performance. Once I’ve got a good load, I’m thinking it will be a shorter path to get back to that peak. I record my chrono data on a piece of paper, but am thinking about using excel. I intend to use a screen capture of your worksheet in the video to develop my own. Thank you again, Brant
OCW works but as you discovered depends on the shooter’s ability to shoot consistent groups. Best of luck!
Looking for help in this type of load development for 243Win. I shot at 200 yards with Magnetospeed from 45.5 to 46.7 grains RE26, 105Berger VLD. Velocities were in this order
45.5 3030
45.7 3074
45.9 3069
46.1 3080
46.3 3082
46.5 3125
46.7 3150
Should I just go with 46.2 grains and experiment with seating depth?
46.2 looks like an excellent spot. And the velocity is a nice compromise between getting the job done vs burning out your barrel too soon.
Sorry; 4.9 not 4.7.
Glad it worked out for you!
Amazing idea, I went a little overboard.
DTA 260 Rem, 26″ barrel, BR2 Primers, Lapua Brass (new), ELD-M 140’s, H4350 Hodgdon.
20 thou off the lands
Here is my data…
1 – 41.5 – 2750
2 – 41.6 – 2759
3 – 41.7 – 2771
4 – 41.8 – 2767
5 – 41.9 – 2776
6 – 42.0 – 2775
7 – 42.1 – 2792
8 – 42.2 – 2801
9 – 42.3 – 2808
10 – 42.4 – 2808
11 – 42.5 – 2817
12 – 42.6 – 2817
13 – 42.7 – 2822
14 – 42.8 – 2829
15 – 42.9 – 2825
16 – 43.0 – 2837
What do you guys think?
Hi,
Wow – looks like you have a number of good options.
Load number 9 looks attractive and it’s just over 2,800 fps which will be a very competitive velocity. Load number 12 is also attractive. Load number 14 also looks attractive as you have an inversion at load 15. However, 2,830 might be a bit toasty so watch for pressure signs.
I see that this typically focuses on ES and SD of velocities rather than accuracy which makes sense. However, it seems that you determine your OCW or velocity and then start tweaking your COAL. Wouldn’t this potentially be dangerous if you develop a load with a small jump and then start decreasing your COAL while keeping your OCW fixed? I’m new to this, but it seems like using a known safe charge weight to determine the best COAL and then and only then working on an OCW or velocity would be the safer method. Any and all comments are welcome.
Hi,
We’re not making drastic changes to the COAL. We’re starting at .020″. Granted, if you plan to jam the bullet into the lands or push it way back into the cartridge you will have a problem. However, if you properly monitor for pressure signs you’ll know if you are having an issue.
Thanks for the response. I’ll keep you guys posted
Hi all.
Where would you do your load work up for each of these three ladders? Should I go with heavier charges or is this velocity about max for a 135 gr. bullet in a Swede…no pressure signs yet ie. stiff bolt etc. All suggestions welcomed. Thanks!!
Rifle: Barrett
Cartridge: 6.35 x 55 Swede
Barrel length: 24”
Bullet: 135 gr. BIB
Viht N560 Reloader 19 Reloader 22
Pwdr Vel (fps) Pwdr(gr.) Vel(fps) Pwdr(gr.) Vel(fps)
48.2 2,765 49.4 2,898 48.0 2,869
48.4 2,847 49.6 2,911 48.2 2,871
48.6 2,885 49.8 2,950 48.4 2,920
48.8 2,878 50.0 2,944 48.6 2,942
49.0 2,877 50.2 2,974 48.8 2,943
49.2 2,901 50.4 2,992 49.0 2,944
49.4 2,914 50.6 3,013 49.2 2,951
49.6 2,942 50.8 3,026 49.4 2,998
49.8 2,945 51.0 3,046 49.6 2,989
50.0 2,966 51.2 3,056 49.8 2,993
Hi,
We don’t have much experience with the 6.5 x 55 Swede. It’s hard to analyze a bunch of numbers. Can you put into a spreadsheet and mail to guys@65guys.com and we can take a closer look. Regarding velocity, 3,000 fps is probably near or at max with a 135gr bullet.
Good day Guys, I am from South Africa, I have a .308 that I use for Long Range Shooting, I got 1 Question,
I am going to start with this load testing now, I always used QL, the question is if I get the Node correct on the rifle, what is happening to that node if the OAL is shortened, pushing the bullet deeper into the case must surely make a difference to the pressure and the FPS, or am I Wrong,
Hi,
Small adjustments in seating depth will not make a whole lot of a difference. But if you’re changing seating depth by .020″ or more you could see an issue. As a general rule, start your load development .020″ off the lands, find your node, and play around with the seating depth as that could tighten up your groups. Good luck!
I am trying to find my node for my ar10(308) and for my powder (IMR8208XBR) and the widest spread for powder charge is 33.2-43.2(Hornady) 33-43.3(Lee) and 39-43.3(Hogdgon) and I use CCI Large Rifle Magnum Primers. What do you guys suggest I load my test grains with it varying so much? I got an average from them (37.0-44.2). I was thinking of loading 40.5 and going up to 43.3 by .3.
Thanks
Hi,
Sorry for the late reply on this – don’t know how it was missed.
Those maximum loads are typically for a bolt gun. For an autoloader, I would start toward the lower end (33 grains). FWIW, we shoot 42.9 gr with a 175 gr bullet in our .308 bolt guns. Starting at 40.5 is pretty hot for an AR10.
Thanks for asking!
I am trying to find my node for my ar10(308) and for my powder (IMR8208XBR) and the widest spread for powder charge is 33.2-43.2(Hornady) 33-43.3(Lee) and 39-43.3(Hogdgon) and I use CCI Large Rifle Magnum Primers. What do you guys suggest I load my test grains with it varying so much? I got an average from them (37.0-44.2). I was thinking of loading 40.5 and going up to 43.3 by .3.
Thanks
Hi,
Using 175gr Nosler RDFs, Lapua Palma Brass, 8208 XBR, a 26″ barrel, CCI Small Rifle Magnum primers we settled on 42.9gr which give you 2,750 out of a 26″ barrel. Now that’s for a bolt gun and I would consider it max (or some would consider above max) for an AR10. I’d poke around at 43gr and under. Be sure to watch your pressure and observe all safe reloading practices.
Way off topic, but at about 7:30 into the video…what are those spikes on the bipod facing aft and what is the hand stop/black block hanging off the rail? Intriguing…
Hi,
Trying to remember the name – will ping Scott and find out.
Here you go: https://rlrr.configio.com/pd/67/harris-dg-dewclaws?source=search&returncom=productlist
Hi Guys,
I really appreciate your work and YouTube videos, they are well done and thoughtful!
I’ve been spending a good deal of time and resources using the OCW. I like the 10 round quick look for nodes (shoulders of deflection in the data), but have inconsistent results that I cannot explain.
I’m shooting a Sako 300 win mag, “hammer forged” 24-3/8″ sporter barrel, with IMR 7828, Nosler brass 3x fired, shoulder adjusted, Barnes LRX 175 set at .020 off the lands with a Foster Co-Ax press, redding competition resizing and seating dies. The powder is dispensed with the RCBS Chargemaster using the modified software adjustments and machined dispensing tip. I purchased a Magneto V3 for this test thinking it would save me much in the long-run, if I can make it work…
Since it is magnum sporter hunting rifle that heats up quickly, I shoot three rounds and allow it to cool between strings….
Any thoughts on why my numbers might be so inconsistent?
IMR 7828 is a slow powder, might I be better off using a .3 increasing interval of rather than a .2?
Synced on: 2017-11-15 10:43:52
Series 2017-11-15_10_43_52 Shots: 11
Notes
Min 2925 Max 3030
Avg 2986 S-D 37
ES 105
Shot IMR 7828 Speed
1 75.3 2971 ft/s
2 75.5 2947 ft/s
3 75.7 2925 ft/s
4 75.9 2934 ft/s
5 76.1 2977 ft/s
6 76.3 3013 ft/s
7 76.5 3011 ft/s
8 76.7 3009 ft/s
9 76.9 3030 ft/s
10 77.1 3009 ft/s
11 77.3 3020 ft/s
Thank you!
Hi,
It’s really hard to tell over the internet why those numbers are jumping all over the place. Do you reload for other rifles? Are you getting similar results? You seem to be using excellent equipment.
Out of curiosity, how do you clean your brass?
Thank you.
I wet tumble with stainless pins, lemi shine and dish soap.
Just got the Chrono and will test again.
It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Regards
Hi,
How do you dry your cases? I’m just wondering if there might be some moisture left in there?
Another thing to try out: Do you have a tumbler with walnut media? Give that a shot and see how things work out.
We played around with stainless steel pins and noticed that they simply got the brass too clean. With pistol brass, they would stick the carbide dies.
was wondering what the outcome of this was?
Are you guys neck turning your brass ?
Hi,
No – we do not neck turn our brass.
Before I read your comments I tried a modified 10 shot load development test. But I loaded 3 shots per weight. This allowed me to do some rudimentary statistics on the loads. I found a low and a high node within my spread. I then loaded up 10 rounds each at .2 grains low, .1 grain low and node. I didn’t go higher because the node fell off as well as the sd ad es. Off to the range and the node was verified. It was also the low es and sd node.
Thanks for the great info. You are the nitty gritty guys. You bring it all to the table. Do you find your velocity nodes are your statistic nodes, or are all of your test loads low es and sd?
Just curious – above you advised about using a carbide mandrel. When looking at sinclair/brownells sight in 6.5CM the SS mandrel is 0.263 and the carbide is 0.262. Which is the better choice to minimize SD when reloading for accuracy?
Thanks
Hi,
People go back and forth about neck tension – some saying .001 is better and others saying .002 is better. For our game, an extra thou in neck tension will ensure that bullets will not dislodge under recoil. We also prefer the carbide mandrel because it doesn’t require lube. FWIW, I (Ed) noticed my SDs go down by a few fps when I increased my neck tension by .001 by using the carbide mandrel.
Thanks for watching!
Please dont shoot the newby question. i have been reloading 6.5CM successfully out to 1012yards. A question about MAX Load…is that the max load as referenced by Hodgen for example or specific to the rifle where you begin to to see pressure signs.
If the latter, i stopped when i had both MV and single digit SDs and didn’t go any further.
Hi John,
As you may know, some reloading manuals tends to be pretty conservative. The Sierra manual is one of them, and the max loads tend to be lower than what many can safely achieve in their rifles. The Hodgdon manual is pretty realistic and max loads with powders such at Varget, H4895 and H4350 tend to be “real” max loads. In other words, you shouldn’t be exceeding those loads unless you REALLY know what you are doing. On the other hand, the max loads with XBR 8208 tend to be a bit conservative in some of the cartridges we’ve used 8208 in (.223 and .308).
Until you gain experience, you should consider the max loads being listed in the Hodgdon manual as true max loads. However, you could see pressure signs even below those charge weights when using thicker brass, hotter primers and bullets with diameters toward the larger end of spec.
We hope this answers your question. If not, please reply with additional details.
Very interesting… I have actually thought about this before. When doing OCW and Ladder test we are looking for the same result but with more work/time and cost. I have a 6.5×55 Ackley Improved that I just got from the gunsmith few weeks ago. I have used OCW successfully before but I just ordered Magnetospeed V3 to try this approach. OCW and ladder test burn up a lot of powder and BARREL LIFE! Especially if one tries more than one bullet and/or powder compination. If this can significantly cut down the rounds needed to develop a load it would be awesome!
Thanks Oskar. Many of our viewers report that they get the same results fro the 10 Round Load Development process as they do from OCW. We too have noticed the same thing.
Can you expand on the idea of “inversions” a little more? I’m seeing that happen quite a bit. I was using my Lyman Get 6 to the through the powder for my workup, but I feel like that scale is drifting a ton! So maybe that was it, but never the less, still seeing a lot of those inversions. Curious how to interpret them. Thanks Guys.
Hi,
Inversions are when the velocity decreases when the powder charge increases. Usually just a few FPS, but it should be considered part of the flat spot. Inversions are not that common but they do occur. If you know your scale is drifting, the velocity data you are getting (whether there is an inversion or not) may be suspect.
Thanks for watching!
Okay. So I do have some of those where it’s only a few FPS one way or the other, but I have a couple, in a couple different spots where it goes down up like 80 FPS for 3 -4 rounds. So something else is probably going on in these situations I would guess. Like inaccurate powder charges or I mixed up the cartridge order? Even still, I’m using this to work up some basic AR 55 FMJ BT loads, and all things considered across three different powders, (TAC, AA2015, H335) there appears to be a couple pretty substantial different spots in the 2660-2670 FPS range and again in the 2870-2880 range. It’s very obvious. Crazy how that works!
Indeed – if you’re going down 80 FPS something is wrong. Best of luck!
any chance of you sharing a copy of your excel chart , in “S2 – 11 – Load Development (Part 2 of 2)” at about min 11:57 ???
First of all you guys are great! Love your videos, keep up the good work!
Tried the ladder load test for the first time today and getting some numbers bouncing around. Any input is appreciated!
Quick overview of equipment, Gen6 powder dispenser, match grade dies, brand new brass. I inspect each piece of brass and weigh each bullet prior to loading. I check CBTO with Hornady bullet comparator on every load. Needless to say I’m a perfectionist and just might be the slowest reloader ever.
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor
Bullet : .264, 147, Hornady ELD-M 26333
Useable Case Capaci: 46.267 grain H2O
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26
Slight pressure signs (ejector mark) after 46.8 but nothing extreme and did not get progressively worse.
1 2717 45.8
2 2829 46
3 2841 46.2
4 2822 46.4
5 2874 46.6
6 2844 46.8
7 2871 47
8 2849 47.2
9 2902 47.4
10 2932 47.6
11 2926 47.8
12 2922 48
13 2970 48.2
14 2976 48.4
Thanks for your time in advance!
6.5 CM New lapua brass H4350 Win SR primers 2.820 OAL LabRadar tested @ 45F
41.2 2653
41.4 2662
41.7 2676
41.9 2694
42.1 2727
42.3 2731
42.5 2744
42.7 2746
42.9 2772
43.1 2786
At 100 yards this 10 round string grouped 0.9″
Anticipated a node at 42.5 based on research looks like 42.6 might be the sweet spot for my gear
140gr ELD-M
Great info for a new rifle shooter. Is would be helpful to spell out acronyms when you use them for the first time in an article. A quick google search told me what OCW, should not have been needed.
Good point Eric. Sometimes what seems obvious to us may not be obvious to the reader….
Nice article and video. Been using my precision rifle about a year noe and reloading most of that time but just shooting what ever to get used to rifle. Next month hoping to teach 1000 hrs and if we can get li e of sight trying a mile. Resently did a 5 shot ladder with 3 steps but wondering if this would work better. Here is info RPR 6.5C stock, Hornady fired brass, EFD-M 140 RL17, .020 off lands. The shot I picked showed, if I used right calcator, SD 10.4 ES 25 not sure of group size have not measured and vol of 2758 2750 2761 2737 2762 with 40.4 grains. Now my questions. 1 Is this a good speed for my RPR? 2 i hear the book maxes are on the safe side, should I start there and go up a couple grains at a time watching for pressure signs the stepping back and is g that as max? Thanks for the articles just found 6.5 Guys and started watching the videos last night.
Welcome to our BLOG – Thanks for your positive comment Billy N
Hi….. One of the rifles shown in the beginning of this video, I presume a 6.5 CM, has a bull barrell.
Can you tell me what kind it is?
Thanks,
Rollin McKim
Okatie SC
It’s a custom built rifle that our friend Scott is shooting (Defiance Action, MPA Chassis, Hawk Hill Barrel chambered in 6.5 Addiction, Huber Trigger, Nightforce ATACR F1 7x35x56 Scope).
Hi Guys!
I sent you an email about some load development. I forgot to say that I shot my data over the Magneto speed sporter.
I think the Gem pro 250 scale I purchased is not very accurate. Yesterday I loaded up my test rounds. My first load workup in line one was 38.5 grains of H4350 Then I loaded up again and I got 2400 fps and the next one was 2450 maybe!
I stopped there and pulled the bullets and re weighed them up and I got line 2.
Line 1 Line 2
38.5- 2807 38.5-2861
38.7 – 2862 38.7-2872
38.9 – 2906 38.9-2856
39.1 – 2910 39.1-2882
39.3 – 2986 39.3-2896
39.5 – 2932 39.5-2916
39.7 – 2964 39.7-2955
39.9 – 2988 39.9-2951
40.1 – 3007 40.1-3043
40.3 – 3058 40.3-2972
40.5 – 3086 40.5-2988
40.7-3007
40.9-3063
Is my scale the problem here or are these weird anomalies like 39.7 – 39.9 normal?
It happens a couple of times. I have been very careful to weigh everything up .Winchester fire formed brass H4350 powder, CCI BR2 LRP. Berger 105 Hybrid bullets.
Please help if you are able!
Brad P
Response sent via email…
I’ve been using this test with great results until now. Was wondering if you can help. I’ve built 2 identical savage 300 win mags with proof research barrels. I’m working 200 gr nosier accubond loads with H1000. 1st rifle was great. The second had weird results. I worked from 74.2 gr of H1000 up to 77.0gr. All charges dispensed by Lyman automatic dispenser then reweighed on gempro 250. Bullets set to mag length and jumping about .070. I used a magnetospeed chrono and the new lab radar chrono. Both reading similar within a couple FPS of each other. Here are the results. Have you seen increases then decreases like this. What could be causing it?
74.2=2661
74.4=2681 ?
74.6=2657
74.8=2665
75.0=2700
75.2=2700
75.4=2676 ?
75.6=2689
75.8=2699
76.0=2701
76.2=2727
76.4=2743
76.6=2772 ?
76.8=2766
77.0=2756 ?
Hi Charles, thanks for writing us with your question. BTW, Are you using new brass to get these results? Note that the 10 Round load Development ladder test requires a very consistent level of results in terms of SD and ES for a given load. Refer to our Load Development Analysis video where this explained toward the end of the video and why 10 round load development ladder test may not work for everyone or in some situations. For the loads with questionable results, I suggest loading 5 rounds and rechrono to verify the average speed for the load. It will also give you information about how consistent (SD and ES) your able to load for that cartridge which should help you gauge if this method is working for you.
Yes new Norma brass. I did size it with Redding competition neck sizer and mandrel sizer. I’ve been getting Sd of less than 5fps on this rifle with this brass, but with a 180gr vs the 200gr we want to shoot.
Charles – new brass will have less shot to shot consistency than brass that has been fire formed to your rifle’s chamber. You should consider re-conducting your ladder test with once fired brass and also try the initial suggestion of chronographing more loads that questionable velocities to work up an average speed.
Will do, thanks.
Gentlemen, I enjoy and appreciate all of the great content! I really do enjoy the development aspect of the game. Wondering, as many of us are lost after Windows 95, do you have a template that a dummy could use for charting/data entry? Like many, I Have more frustrated hours trying to figure out the input of my findings than developing the load. I/Many would pay for this seemingly pedestrian thing Hahhaa. Keep up all the good work. Shoot straight.
Duane,
Steve has created a new Excel spreadsheet model for load analysis and even created an instructional video to provide an overview for how to use it. Check out the YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/oKxf-dbexMM
The Excel worksheet model is here: http://www.65guys.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Load-Analysis-Model-V2.xlsm
boys, must the ladder test be done WITH or WITHOUT the silencer
Well , who does not love your videos LOL .Thank you for sharing and please help me understand a few things .
I did a ladder test for my 308 win ,165 gn Hornady SST ,Varget shot in my Tikka T3x CTR 20 inch barrel and everything went well , i loaded .020 off the lands from 44Gn To 46Gn which by Hodgdon is the maximum recommended load .
I could easily identify 2 nodes between 44.4-44.8 and 45.6-45.8 but i feel like i could easily pass the maximum load of 46 that gives me 2722 FPS with no pressure signs whatsoever . I know you wont advise me to load more than max but i read on forums guys that say they loaded up to 47.5 before they saw pressure signs and the load data for this combination varies allot as i am at max load by Hodgdon and 2 Grains over what Hornady recommends. Now you will wonder why i need more than 2700FPS maybe and my answer is because the reticle of my Scope (Primary Arms 4-14×44 Orion reticle) was engineered for the Hornady Superformance 165 SST That shoots 2840 fps. Should i look past 2700Fps ? Thank you
PS ; Is there any program or app to load the ladder data and get a spreadsheet
Adrian,
Steve has created a new Excel spreadsheet model for load analysis and even created an instructional video to provide an overview for how to use it. Check out the YouTube video here: https://youtu.be/oKxf-dbexMM
The Excel worksheet model is here: http://www.65guys.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Load-Analysis-Model-V2.xlsm
Excellent spreadsheet and video. THANKS!!